Chris O’Connell – Losing everything after selling a £25m business only to come back fighting

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Julie Wilkinson  00:03

Hi, I’m Judy Wilkinson, and I’m a chartered management accountant. And I’m excited to be launching the build and exit podcast. This podcast is for business owners and entrepreneurs who are looking to expand their business portfolio by acquisition, or at some point in the future, when to exit their business. We’re going to bring real life stories and experiences of people who have grown by acquisition, who have exited their businesses, and other areas of business such as funding and cash flows. So there’ll be lots of opportunity to learn different areas of business and how you can in the end, transition your business from a lifestyle to an asset to look forward to seeing you soon. Hi, and welcome to the build and exit Podcast. I’m Judy will concern and I founded the building exit podcast because my company will consider accounting solutions helps business owners with acquisitions and Exit Planning. Our mission is to save the world for failed acquisitions, and give our listeners lots of top tips and guidance on things to think about if you’re looking to exit your business, and what acquirer should look for when they’re looking at purchasing business. So I’m really excited today to have Chris O’Connell. So I’ve invited Chris on because he’s got a really exciting story. So Chris, used to own a business recruitment business that was sort of 25 to 30 mil turnover with quite a lot of staff and actually sold through private equity, which we’re delving into stay at a since sold that business. And now it’s all the coach and mentor to help purpose driven owners looking to build and grow and sell, but also very into mindset and well being which I’m quite into because I do a lot of meditation and manifestation as well. So I quite like that. So yeah, I’m really excited to have you. So firstly, over to you, Chris, maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself.


Chris O’Connell  01:48

Thanks, Jerry. Thanks for having me on. I love the show love the context of the show as well. I love your passion. So I’m looking forward to send me all about my story. And it’s kind of that the highs and lows of my journey. So I started out in recruitment 25 years ago for a big business called s3. Those in the recruitment industry will know it some people out there interview with that as well. But they’ve got sort of four and a half 1000 consultants worldwide 1.4 billion pound business across 60 offices in 20 countries. I walked in there as a very fresh faced naive wet beyond the 21 year old he was quite shy and quite, you know, quite anxious really due to choose a troubled childhood which I’ll tell you about later, maybe but ordinarily, you wouldn’t put me in that environment. But you know people with the shiny shoes why Thais driving Ferraris, I just I just kind of fell in love with it basically and smashed it out of the park. So I became one of their brands UK Top better than the world’s top worldwide top bid on the whole group across the whole groups top pillar billing a million quid a year and loved it for five years went way up there became a manager director Team Leader made them 50 million quid left there in 2003, set our own business in nine years got it to 100 people 25 million pound turnover, 14 industry awards. Our southwest Entrepreneur of the Year, absolutely phenomenal business to this day people to tell me is one of if not the best recruiting business out there. We just opened up a third office, I wanted to expand into Paris and Australia and all these kind of things. And my business partner walked in one day and said didn’t want to do anymore. Just that nice third child. I obviously couldn’t afford to buy him out because I didn’t have sort of toggle off and and quit my half of the business in cash I could play of how it was all tied into the business. So I did a private equity deal. And the first year was good. And then the second year it all unravelled. They infiltrated my board and kind of the culture disseminated really, really quickly. And although I was the CEO, you know, I retained my 50% and got a decent loan. No, it was all good. It was there was a complete sea change toward it was you know, I was looking at spreadsheets every day and the whole counting the coffee granules and all sorts of so it it was just it transpired that actually, that deal went really wrong. And I kind of lost all of it. I lost the whole business, lost seven houses, lost access to my children got divorced, had three suicide attempts. It was a dark, dark, dark time. It took me two or three years to kind of even come out of that in any sort of format. And I came back onto LinkedIn about three years ago told my story and utilised that experience and pivoted my business and built an LED portfolio business now where I’ve helped over 4045 I think is now businesses scale. A lot of them on chairman or holding board meetings and getting them to exit as well. And I love that and I think I’ve utilised the the highs and the lows of that experience. And it’s not much I haven’t seen now. So learning the whole private equity space is really good building this kind of business. So I’m a podcast host as well. I’m very into mindset and purpose. And yeah, there’s a little bit about me.


Julie Wilkinson  04:58

Wow, Chris. That is quite a story, I think, actually. And one, you know, I just that’s what I really wanted to cover because I now speak to about the story. And I think, especially the well being side of it as well, you know, we talk a lot on here about acquisitions and business and what people have to do, but I think people’s mindset and health is really important as well. I mean, how did you eventually manage to get through it and sort of come back to life? Would you say,


Chris O’Connell  05:25

Wow, I think I think that it was time on my own, really, I kind of got divorced, moved out the family home and spent some time on my own and kind of forced myself to look at myself and understand that maybe some of this was down to me. So the pointing fingers at other people time and realising all those that I was a multimillionaire at 2627, I was buying 45 grand watches, Range Rovers and all these things and got to 10 million 15 million 20,000,020 5 million, maybe someone got there was just kind of like an anti climax. So I think, at the time, I didn’t think it now I think that’s probably one of the best things that happened to me. So it’s kind of like a dawn of realisation that money is growing scaling businesses is great and important, but it’s not the key to happiness. So I thought my whole world had ended. But actually, it just started, because then I was looking at my purpose, and my why and what I was doing, and what I’m doing now, I enjoyed, I enjoy much more than what I was doing back then. So it was a journey of about two or three years of personal development, looking at myself, understanding what my values are being out of the rat race being out of chasing the next office watch called pound sign, and actually being happy in my own skin and being happy with my kids and being happy looking at the trees and all that kind of stuff. Now, I’ve got a bit of both Well, I’ve got that drive and enthusiasm, that ambition to grow my business, but also, it’s not 99.99% of my focus.


Julie Wilkinson  06:55

Yeah. So when you sold the business, obviously, you said so about your business partner? How long did you make that decision over? Was that quite a quick thing? Or did you get ready? Was it already set up ready to sell?


Chris O’Connell  07:07

I think I think when we first set it up, there wasn’t necessarily a different vision. But actually, this is one of the first things I teach or mentor my business to do. Even if they’re not thinking about it, I get them to do a vision mission values, but also getting to have an exit strategy and plan. So But going back to me, we didn’t really have that. But as the business got to sort of big levels that you start 50 staff for offices at start, you know, my business partner more than me was thinking out, right, you know, I think we should start to plan. So I think probably only about a year before we did the deal. We he we started talking about it. And then we did it didn’t take long to do before we kind of even completed the inflammation memorandum we had like four offers. So someone must have heard about it. We didn’t even need to go to market. So the deal happened really, really quickly. I got a really, really good offer better than the one I actually went for. But they pulled the plug and then the original firm came back in. And yeah, I mean, I remember on deal day, probably signing about 400 different things. And as you well know probably, you know, the amount of due diligence that they do they they they leave no stone unturned every email, every transaction, every almost every every phone call, and rightly so. So yeah. It didn’t take long to do. I think that if your business is good, and you you know, it’s not just about me, EBIT is a good driver, isn’t it, but it was the strength of our management team. It was it was the our average fee, or our breadth of customer base it was on market was the timing, everything was tick, tick, tick, tick. So we got quite lucky in that regard, as well.


Julie Wilkinson  08:42

Yeah, so the deal goes through and you said it was good for the first year? What was your involvement after the sale? Did you have to stay on or?


Chris O’Connell  08:49

Yeah, when we first said it was 5050, kind of joint CEOs, Pete left, and then I became the CEO. So I was the CEO of the business. And then I had we bought in, they bought in a pseudo chairman and three other people, as directors, and a couple of finance people, some other people quite a lot of people, but my role didn’t necessarily change. I was still the CEO on paper, but you know, I’ve dealt with many private equity firms. Did they give me the automata to run it how it was? No, I don’t think they did. They kind of like it kind of was a bit like night and day in terms of the beauty of our business was the culture and how hands house how hands on I was and I used to sit in the office and not expect anyone to do something not not to provide to myself and I drove the business but I spent a lot of my time post post the transaction, studying p&l and studying where we could save money and studying where you know, it kind of that was the deterioration of it, I think.


Julie Wilkinson  09:49

Okay, so as part of the exit, then you wanted to stay at you. You was planning to stay there for a long time. A long period was you


Chris O’Connell  09:57

Yeah, oh no. That’s the reason why Why the deal was done was I saw this part actually vehicle is a great track record or personal people that could actually get it from 25 million 200 million from, you know, one and a half million quid EBIT to forming equity. But I’m just, I saw another three to five years in it at least. But it just didn’t transpire that, unfortunately.


Julie Wilkinson  10:17

So then after the first year, then when it went wrong, what are you happy to tell a little bit about what happened?


Chris O’Connell  10:25

Well, I’d love to, I have actually signed a really strict gagging order an NDA. So I can’t go into into into too much the details, all I can say is that it wasn’t anywhere near as expected. What was the reality? Wasn’t that as as expected? And yeah, I think that there was a certain modus operandi that was on the table that I wasn’t necessarily aware of. And instead of wanting to drive the business forward, I think they wanted to just because we had a very heavy sort of contract book in terms of, we had lots of consistent recurring revenue. So even if we didn’t do any business for next two years, we had business coming in. So I think they wanted to kind of like, keep that not drive the business forward, just and just save money rather than going the other way. And that was against my principles, my morals. And it just came very difficult to actually make any decisions around wanting to scale wanted to hire want to be new officers, new people, it was just clashing all the time I was I was always the one that would want to spend the money and go for it enjoy forward. And you know, that that didn’t happen.


Julie Wilkinson  11:34

Yeah. Well, it’s an impressive business, though.


Chris O’Connell  11:37

I think there are there are pros and cons. I mean, there’s pros. As you know, there’s pros of bootstrapping isn’t there where you where you’ve got the flexibility, and you’ve got the autonomy to kind of do what you want. But if you do find the right, prime FC vehicle, then you can accelerate more quickly as well.


Julie Wilkinson  11:53

Yeah. Well, I mean, we were of law when I would like for instance, we’re in the talks on 11 deals at the BX we help people with acquisitions, and we see it a lot actually where the buyer, suppose the buyer buys, and they have these terms with the seller. And I think, in your case, it was the other way where you didn’t fit in, but I think they we see it from both sides for sometimes the seller can’t change. So the buyer comes in and has like new ideas. Yeah, they want to do it their way they may be because a lot of the owner operate your your business like it was had sort of boot into a corporate mindset. Anyway, probably a lot of these SMEs where it’s just sort of owner driven, and not really doing budgets, the although they might have a management team, the management team don’t really drive anything so much. And then some of them over podcast without people come on talk about culture, and why it causes them.


Chris O’Connell  12:41

Totally, I mean, a lot of my clients don’t have any kind of rigour around operational financial that work on this stuff. I think I totally understand what you’re saying we had some good quality stuff, but they brought it in, don’t get me wrong, they brought in some amazing stuff. But I think I think you can go too far. The other way. 100%. It was literally, it was I think, is I think, I think you have to have that rigour, the process that the p&l is the balance sheets and focusing on the bottom line. But if you’re destroying the culture, at the same time, you’re therefore destroying the revenue.


Julie Wilkinson  13:10

Yeah, people grow in it. I mean, like, I’ve worked in a lot of corporate firms. And actually, we all know that corporate firms go and I think corporate firms have good structure. And I think people could learn from the corporate structure, like a maybe like a planning cycle, but nobody needs 100 page report, they don’t really read. So you know, people just want real information quickly to then, like, make decisions, really, because I think the problem is, is looked from an outsider listening to what you’re saying, I think it seems like you know, you had a bit of a corporate mindset, but still an SME sort of like, you know, business culture. And these people have come in and tried to just bring in too much corpora and it just didn’t sit well. That’s what it sounds like from an outside. Yeah, yeah.


Chris O’Connell  13:50

So now it’s more common.


Julie Wilkinson  13:54

Right? Yeah. That’s a shame. But nevermind. So now, though. So you’ve come back, you’re back on LinkedIn. So now your coach and mentor. So what does that entail? I mean, what sort of things that you help people do? Do? Are you helping people like buy businesses or?


Chris O’Connell  14:10

Yeah, they say a lot. A lot of my clients come to me and they’ve got 10 people, 20 people 30 People want to get to 5080 100, I’ve got 4 million quid they want to get to 20 million quid or they want to achieve an exit. So one of the first things I do is work with the CEO, the founders, and the owners understand their strengths or weaknesses, because more often than not the problem. Yes, it’s operations, marketing, branding, p&l and all that kind of stuff. But it’s actually them as individuals is their mindset is that ego that they’re trying to do, they try to be all things to all people are doing loads of things. averagely, my role is to get them to do a few things really well understand their strengths and hold them accountable. So I do an audit on on all of those kinds of things. And make them get out their own way. Lots of problems. They are, though, they’re quite dictatorial. They’re not really executing anything tangible. So we do all that kind of stuff. Then it’s the mission, vision and values understanding where we are now. Where do you want to get to and how we’re going to get there that can be in headcount profitability revenues strategy, where we’re going to put in the arrow markets, to all that kind of stuff. Then I do a leadership development, review and programme for the CEO and and all those all the other directors understanding where they can improve as leaders, then it’s a creative and plans for the whole business. So everyone’s got, so it’s not just the CEOs vision is our vision. So the whole business is brought into this vision of where we’re going. And if it is a three to five year exit, we say that, and we’re open about it. And we create opportunity and share scheme to work on stuff. And it’s looking at sales, marketing, branding, operations, all that kind of stuff. And it’s the whole suite. So I’ve got a few clients where I’m just starting out with them. I’ve got a few clients where I’m two years in, and we’re getting into sort of a fit for purpose stage. I’ve got a few clients where I’ve got some equity, and we’re kind of getting them to the, to the sell stage. And it’s different ends of the cycle. And I love it. I love going in and coming out again. And yes, an exciting time at the moment.


Julie Wilkinson  15:58

Yeah, sounds really exciting. And is there? I mean, do you ever think there’s a Do you ever recommend to people that they’re not in a place to sell? Like, do it does that wherever because we see people come and say, Oh, we’re gonna sell in six months. But they’ve got no reporting? No, no management team, no real systems and processes? I mean, do you see that? Do people approach you like in that same?


Chris O’Connell  16:22

Yeah, I think I think they underestimate what what actually is needed to get it anywhere near someone’s interest. You know, I think that they, they have a couple of good years and think, Oh, we could sell it and they’ve got literally they don’t even have any board reports. And even at board meetings, I don’t have done something that even record their sales well enough. So it’s, it’s it, yes, they do underestimate it. And as you know, there’s so many factors, the strength is on the management team, more often than not, it’s kind of like the business is built on 20% of the people, and it’s 8% worth of fat. And if one person leaves or the CEO leaves or whatever, you know. So I think it’s just educating them and you can’t, well, in my sector, you can’t turn a business into a fit for sale business overnight. So I’m straight with them and honest with them and say, Look, if you want me on board, it might take this amount of time to get and this is what we need to do. Or if I feel that the owners are just living in cloud cuckoo land, I won’t work with them. I haven’t got time energy, and I don’t need I don’t need the hassle.


Julie Wilkinson  17:19

Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, we see it so often as well, especially on the buy side when they’re looking at the sellers information. I mean, how I mean, I we probably see about 100 a month. I don’t think we’ve ever seen one that entitles the account in history always. They’re always quite poor. Yeah.


Chris O’Connell  17:39

Yeah. But is that is that unrealistic expectations, I was trying to help one of my existing clients do a JV with this with another client, we were quite sensible about where we were in our valuation with about us. But this business wanted like a 50 multiplier on turnover, not even on EBIT. And there’s always kind of all this kind of stuff where it’s like, either either you think we’re stupid, or you’re living in a different world. And I think, you know, sometimes you see on Dragon’s Den, where they, they pick these numbers out of the sky. So it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting one.


Julie Wilkinson  18:14

Yeah, well, I know, because I mean, I’ve seen I’ve seen businesses that are being presented to buyers, and they’ve made like maybe 10k loss in the year or 20k loss. And they might understand one year initially, and then suddenly, there were 450,000. And you’re like, how does a business? So how does it so because what they do in that year, they then added it back, I’ve literally seen an example where it’s 10,000 loss, and suddenly, it’s 150,000 profit in the year, obviously, that then three times, you know, and I’m like, How how can Like to me, but buyers do believe it? Because they’re uneducated, but me personally, I’d be thinking, if the if the business didn’t need that amount of cost, surely they wouldn’t be centred it mean that would worry me straightaway. Because why would they be spending such a high amount of cost, and even if the director has taken that as their own personal there is a limit to like how much you should be if you’ve made a loss that year that the director shouldn’t really be taking that amount of money.


Chris O’Connell  19:09

You’ve always got to go in with a mindset of it’s too good to be true. And your there’s always something that they don’t tell you isn’t there, you know, no, you know, I think that but for me, it’s about getting out in the open. It’s like if you’ve got some debt or you’ve got a loan or whatever, just tell us you could even find it anyway. Mazel gets the chase.


Julie Wilkinson  19:25

Okay, right yourself. Because, you know, at the end of the day, I actually funnily enough, I put a post on LinkedIn today about accrual accounting, it’s where most people go and start, you know, they’re not accounting correctly, just for their basic bookkeeping, and it does change the valuations a lot. And then but if you just get somebody on board, like we’re going, you know, we help sellers and look at their financial how they do their bookkeeping and how they report on it because ultimately, if you get into a state where you’ve got a bit of a board pack, that I suppose essentially becomes your seller pack eventually, and you’re ready you don’t need to lie or manipulate because you see the truth. Yeah, you Accept the truth. And then you fix the truth, you know, and you make it become the business you want and then you and then at the end of day, if it’s a good business, the buyer will pay a higher multiple, you don’t need to manipulate the bid door to get them to pay more, you should let them pay more, and get your business to run well, in the first place.


Chris O’Connell  20:15

Oh, totally the power of running a decent ballpark with decent born that you do that for six 912 months, it makes you run the business better. Anyway, the amount of businesses out there that don’t do that and think it’s overkill. But once I’ve started to implement it, they love it. They love reporting on it. And it’s as a buyer, I’d prefer to see the shit in in reality and be honest about and go rather than finding out later on. Because then it’s like you start to lose faith anyway, then you show me


Julie Wilkinson  20:39

Yeah. And actually, people are still willing to pay good money for businesses, even if they’ve got a bad side, as long as you’re open. Yeah, yeah, it might change the deal structure or how often you get paid it and things like that. But that doesn’t mean you can’t still get a good value for it. But I don’t know why people try to bid. I think it’s just because they just feel they just have this fear. They just think, Oh, I earn a good lifestyle. You know, they take a lot of money, they just instantly think it’s worth a lot. And then when they start to look into it, they’re like, Oh, my God, it’s not they try and do it quickly, I think and they just want everything tomorrow. And unfortunately, that’s not real life ism.


Chris O’Connell  21:12

And what why I was shocked about when I did my deal sort of 10 years ago now was the fees. And you’ve got to equate for those. I mean, the 400 Grand for the corporate finance team, you know, you’ve got 150 grand lawyer bills, you’ve got tax bills to pay, you’ve got you’ve all got you’ve got to you’ve got to be aware of these kinds of things, right?


Julie Wilkinson  21:29

Yeah. Oh, so the ones that say the no money down deals, I mean, the way I always talked about them, the amount of people that just think they can buy a business with no money, because somebody’s telling them on a course I can leverage asset financing and pay for the whole deal. But it’s like, they don’t even have a cash flow, a plan. They got no contingency, no risk strategy. And I’m not, you know, I know you can get good deals, I’ve seen it. You know, we’ve done our own good deals and acquisitions, but you don’t just the hard work starts once you buy it, not when you’re buying it.


Chris O’Connell  21:59

And all and also these owners that sometimes think they can get the full price and then swing off into the sunset on day one. Well, no, if you want to go straight away, you’re gonna that’s gonna come at a cost. Where is it going to stand? It is all about kindness. There’s so many factors, right?


Julie Wilkinson  22:11

Yeah, so. But anyway, one thing I did just want to touch base on as well is the mindset side, because I do acquire a lot of meditation and manifestation. So I’m into it. So I’m quite interested to hear about I mean, do you do that with your coaching? Or is that just something you’re interested in on the side?


Chris O’Connell  22:28

Oh, I do. I mean, I’ve just literally put the phone down or Zoom call down to someone who one of my CEOs who actually needed that he was overwhelmed becoming burnt out said he’s, he’s hired more people. But he’s more stressed now, that has more workload than wondering when he was doing it on his own. And I just got into write down the three to five most important things he does in business, but then Personal Development, Health and Fitness, he talks about wanting to do yoga, wants to go hiking with his wife, and we only really chiselled down on his diary and he worked management. And he realised that if he spent more time with his wife, and did some more meditation, do some yoga, he’d have more free time to execute the work properly. So sometimes I think that, you know, it’s about zooming out as a business owner, and the most productive thing doesn’t have to be a business thing. So I’m all for routine. I’m all for meditation, all for having the right mindset. And I learned that I now effectively run I think, 15 different businesses, I’ve got more time on my hands I don’t ever have because I am strict on my time. And I see Personal Development, Health and Fitness, purpose, relationships, all that kind of stuff just as important as the business. So I think that’s where a lot of CEOs can learn that, you know, sometimes slowing down a little bit can help you speed up.


Julie Wilkinson  23:44

Do you think you knew that when you used to run your big business? So when you had your 25? Or do you think you do you think it was just worked? Well, it worked then


Chris O’Connell  23:52

I was? Yeah, that was my biggest downfall. Wish I did. I was 99.9% focused on work. I send emails at three o’clock in the morning, I lost relationships, I was insatiable. And on one hand, it helps it drove the business but then on the other hand, I became so focused on it, I was just become a bit of a just a bit of an animal and it kind of like I was I was always turning people off. And I just think that yeah, it can be counterproductive. So I think that yes, you have to work hard. Yes, you have to be diligent, of course you do. But you’ve got to have that time where you’ve got to have that downtime. It’s really important.


Julie Wilkinson  24:28

I mean, I found because I realise because I’ve only had my business three and a half years and I in January this show into Jamaica, and I’ve built I mean we’ve got like nine employed now so as my business has grown, I’ve stepped out a bit. Yeah. And then I after I went straight I thought got a camera because I was waiting nearly four weeks and I came back in the business was just fine and it made me realise there is more to exciting I had done too much. So I started doing so I’m joined a wellness centre so I do like yoga body balance, and then I start Do my meditation. And what I found it does for me is just clarity. Because I think sometimes you’re so busy, you’re overworked. I just find I tried to meditate twice a day now sort of morning and night, not not like hours at a time, just sort of five minutes here and there. And just like breathe. And I think it has been, it does make me more clear on my decisions. Definitely. I feel like I make I’m making more clarity clarified, like decisions for myself.


Chris O’Connell  25:26

When you get that right with your CEOs that as well, I think the CEO them in part of it on his team. And I think that I think businesses, the ones that are doing well, are the ones that are genuinely focused on wellbeing as well. Not over the top, but making sure there is a flexi time or making sure there is a mental health programme make making sure there is the ability for people to go to the gym, and all that kind of stuff. And I think COVID has affected productivity in a different kind of way, but in a good way, actually. So I think the landscapes changed from say, five or six years ago, right?


Julie Wilkinson  26:01

Yeah. Oh, I think so. Yeah. I mean, I was always gonna do a virtual model. But I literally started officially in Jan 20, just before COVID. So I didn’t really have a choice. But I was I was always gonna consider a virtual model anyway, but But ya know, I find it really easy. I said, we have flexibility. So like, for instance, one of our staff wanted to go to Ireland, because their partner lives in Ireland. And she was like, oh, I need to go to Ireland for six weeks, like, yeah, go to Ireland for six weeks. She’s like, Oh, my God, I can’t believe I’m allowed to go and work in Ireland for six weeks. You know, but it’s like, well, we work virtually anyway. So you know, that’s where you’re happy, like, go go and work there. It doesn’t matter does it as long as you still do the hours.


Chris O’Connell  26:35

But I used to be guilty of the opposite, though. You know, what was this? I think it was about 11 or 12 years ago, and one of these girls that we hired, she wanted to work from home, I was literally like, No, there’s no effing charge for doing that really ends here. And I look back at myself and think what I was like, now I know I teach my my businesses not to be like that. I think the problem is a lot of business owners are stuck in that old school mentality of you’ve got to run through a brick wall for me, you got to make 100 calls a day, you got to do 15 hours a day you got to do it’s like actually, that’s such an old rhetoric that did actually work back then. But productivity doesn’t have to be 24/7. You can do it a different way thing.


Julie Wilkinson  27:14

Yeah. Oh, wow. Well, we come into the end. Thanks so much. I think that’s been brilliant. Because I think your your story is really inspiring, I think personally anyway, so I’m really glad that you’ve come on. And I just want to say to our listeners, thanks so much. Listen to the show. If you love what we do, hit the subscribe button because you know you helps more listeners find our show. And yeah, we’ll see you again soon. So, once again, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to our podcast. I hope you found it useful. If you did, there’s anyone else in your network that might benefit from our podcast and please share it with them even just click the link and send it to them or send it in a Facebook group or other social media channel. Don’t forget to subscribe. So other podcasts come to you directly as a when we launch them. So I’m really looking forward to seeing you next time. We’ve got some really exciting things coming up. And we’ll see you again soon.